Proofing continues - it is definitely taking longer than we hoped and this may impact delivery. For now though we still hope to have the game manufactured prior to CNY next year - if we can.
We are finishing off the core Rules just now so we can share them with you.
In the meantime I thought some of you may be interested in watching David et al. play on his channel.
Cheers
Kev
Proofing update
6 months ago
– Tue, Nov 07, 2023 at 12:52:39 PM
Hi folks,
I hope everyone is well - here is a progress update on proofing.
As you know we are delivering a multi product portfolio which makes the proofing process intricate as many parts of the design talk to one another (e.g. if we change something in one set then that may well impact multiple sets).
We knew this would be the case and we had planned for this! What we are doing involves proofing each set by splitting it into components (box, books etc) and card types. Whenever we change a component or card type we double check what that will mean for other sets.
For example with regards to the Weeping Caves Enhanced Edition we are remastering the entire set to bring it into line with the newer sets, this involves 11 Component types and 15 different card types (Basic Tests, Weapon Talents etc).
With LU we always fix the cards first because everything else hangs off the cards (the play guides, the books, even the boxes, they all reference those cards).
I am pleased to say we have now done a first proof of all the cards across all 7 sets (WC, GS, ID, PP, NB1, NB2, NB3).
Our next stage is to proof the other components (the vast majority of time being spent on the books). We can then share books with you for those that want to see them - though I am worried about spoilers so I need to think through what if anything we can share on Deepsorrow).
We will then do a final proof of all the cards and components before sending off to Whatz. I can't confirm exactly when that will be yet as the cards took longer than we hoped, however I hope to be able to share the Core Rulebook within the next week and we will keep working on the Campaign Guides in parallel.
For now I thought you may want to see some of the things that we have changed in the remastering process which be believe will make the game better for all:
Occupation cards
Here you can see the Performer from the Great Sewers Enhanced Edition set. The same card as before but we have added recommended starting cards for a Level 1 Build directly on the card in line with Deepsorrow. Please note this card does not have the new Great Sewers Set icon on it yet (the one shown is the Sewers Environment icon) this will be addressed in the second proof.
Foe cards
A slightly redesigned Foe card, Thuban Asharat no less, whom we introduced in the stretch goals and has pride of place as the 'Enhanced Edition' badge on the new box.
Things to note here:
1 - We dropped the 'Melee or Ranged' word from the Keywords section, this gives us more space to use for potential future cards where we want to describe multiple or longer keywords. We have now placed the Melee or Ranged stance icon below the Alertness Rating as this is more intuitive and the icons matches those on the Talents you will be using in combat. In this case Thuban is Alertness 10 and a Ranged Foe.
2 - Continuing on with the tweaked user interface to the left of the card we have added a vs Melee and vs Ranged box below the Melee/Ranged Foe icon - this helps avoid confusion to show that you always include these icons when you are rolling against the Foe.
3 - We have tweaked the Melee and Ranged Combat Tracks to make it really clear which applies in any situation and the applicable Damage the Foe causes. We did this primarily because a number of people play the game for the first time and can be confused as to why only the Ranged Foes have a Combat Track (the Melee Foes do not require one).
4 - If you look at the Creature number track you will see we have added in little symbols to the left and right of the figures to show # of Creatures and Breakpoint. We think this will just make it that much easier to understand which is the Breakpoint figure when people are trying to remember/learn.
5 - We have introduced a few new Abilities with the new sets one of which is Summon. This is another way for us to keep Foes fresh and interesting, in this case Thuban likes to summon all those rats for you to fight first. You can see the proofing process live in this document where I have marked up 'summon' in the rules section of the card as it should in fact be 'Summon'.
Extra Spacing
We are taking the opportunity to use the extra space we have where we can to improve readability. Here is a first draft of one of the new Booby Trap cards in the WC Enhanced Edition. Note my proofing mark which asks for more space.
Here is the revised version, you can see the same card but much easier to read. Please ignore the Speciality icon at the top, this is for Gnimshka but it should in fact be the Subterranean Speciality. Also don't worry about all the coloured frames and punctuation marks on the card below, this is just me showing you a screenshot from the merged file on InDesign.
New Supply token icon
We introduced a new Supply icon with the new Deepsorrow set to make it look different from the Loot icon used at the top of the Loot cards. You can see it here being applied to one of the new WC EE cards.
Changed Ability
Legends Untold is an ambitious project, it is inevitable that try as we may we will not get everything right first time. This one Talent has bugged me for some time. To be clear it does work, it's just I've always felt that using Cave Brother is quite hard to do as you need an Event to occur to use it. Because of this I usually always use the top two Abilities instead - this lack of balance does not sit well with me! With this in mind we are changing the bottom Ability slightly so that you can use it more situations but it still seems relevant to caving thematically. This is a change for the better but will create a different version of this Talent card. With this in mind we will reissue this card in the Enhanced Edition and give everyone one free copy of it in their upgrade packs so that old and new backers alike benefit from the change.
New Location cards
As part of the Enhanced Editions we are adding 5 more Caves Cards to the WC EE set and 5 more Sewers Cards to the WC Set. This will give you 20 Location cards in each of those sets making for more variety to your adventures. We have worked hard on the design and vision of these to make sure that they fulfil a number of criteria:
They need to fit seamlessly with the original cards.
They need to move the cards forward so that they also work with Deepsorrow.
They give us the opportunity to foreshadow the look of potential sets.
To make this happen we have deliberately added more detail, more verticality, more icons, sometimes they may work a bit differently because of the layout we have chosen.
With this in mind I'm excited to reveal some of the Enhanced Edition Location cards that we have built at this stage:
Above you can see WC-LO16 Winding River. Please note the Card Code, we are renumbering the Card Codes in Deepsorrow as per a previous update and making the EE sets run from 16-20 so that you get a straight run of Caves 1-20 and Sewers 1-20 in those sets. Secondly please note the Weeping Caves Set icon to the left of the Card Code and the original Set icon being used as the Caves Environment icon to the right. Another point I would raise on this card is that the Scouting Difficulty levels are higher, you need to be more careful with your use of Time and Scouting with some of these cards or you may well end up being Careless and end up in the Winding River. How's that for immersion folks? Ahem - apologies I can not escape making Dad Jokes nowadays!
Next up we have WC-LO19 Collapsed Cave. What I wanted to show here is the artist working towards that feeling of looking through the roof rather than an into an open space, so you can see some natural stone and some supporting braces have been added here to give you that sensation. Importantly now that we have more reasons to go through Barriers than in the original sets we wanted to give you that whole 'ooh what were they mining behind there?' sensation. So if you want to go through that Barrier you will unlock both a Treasure Zone and Minerals, and also a Dark Exit which may well be important if you are worried about sneaking up on Foes.
With GS-LO18 Breached mineshaft we are doing a little bit of foreshadowing with the wagon tracks. In particular the story we want to tell here is that you could escape off into the tunnels to the left or play it safe and go ambient in the bottom right. If you are really keen to go through that Barrier and check out the Minerals there is another Exit hiding in the top right you may miss on first glance.
I will finish this section with a look at GS-LO19 Spoil Hepas. If you look at the vertical nature of this Location it has three maybe four levels represented in it. We are using the tweaked Egress Barrier rules to the full on this card, if you want to access those Barrels and the Campsite with their Exits beyond you will need to negotiate the Barriers first.
The Enhanced Edition Locations have been a lot of work for us and the artist. For sure they have taken longer to do by a good few months than we originally hoped. I can confirm we now have one to go Hidden Hollow GS-LO25. I have now seen the first draft, it looks fantastic, I hope this card will be complete very soon.
Personacards
One thing we have done with some of the cards is to add extra descriptive text where possible and appropriate. Note for many of the tests this is not usually possible or desirable as they are already full of data points, however for some of the more simple cards the additional text can just help drive the immersion a little bit further. For example in the case of Althenor and his little dog Tiwu, some descriptive text just helps build the story more when you have the card to hand. I have to say I always smile at the thought of Tiwu joining our reluctant heroes as they try to find a path for their kin into the Weeping Caves.
Please ignore the Set icon shown in this card, it is the wrong one and will be rectified.
Next steps
We need to get the Core Rulebook out to you for proofing, I hope we can do that within a week or so. While you are looking at that we will complete proofing of the other books and components and then share what we can (spoiler comment above applies for the Deepsorrow Campaign Guide). When that is all done we can do a final second proof and get the files off to Whatz.
I apologise for the additional time it is taking for the proofing, I have endeavoured to demonstrate above that we are doing this to make the products the very best they can be for you when they arrive with you. We hope that you like what you see.
Thanks for all of the proofreading offers to date - they are much appreciated!
Best wishes to you all
IG
Very brief update
7 months ago
– Thu, Oct 05, 2023 at 01:43:12 AM
Hi folks,
just wanted to let you know that we are currently going through our detailed proofing process at this end before sharing stuff with you.
We are checking every card from every set before sharing to give us the greatest chance of success.
Please bear with us - it is hundreds of cards but it will be worth it when the finished product is made.
We are also tidying up a few things for the Enhanced Editions of the Caves and Sewers like making sure there are recommended started builds on the Occupation cards.
I believe I have now caught up with all outstanding queries, if you have something outstanding please let me know.
Wishing you all the best.
Cheers
Kev
Version 2 Insert, updated timeline
8 months ago
– Tue, Sep 12, 2023 at 06:58:00 AM
Hi folks,
first off I want to apologise for the delay in getting this update out to you. I always want to make these updates about the game/world and not about personal circumstances unless it is necessary. However in this case, it is appropriate for you to know that I have been in hospital a few times over the past month which has had an impact on my health and energy levels. I am much better now and thank everyone for the kind wishes. Please note the rest of the team have continued working on the project during my illness.
Version 2 Insert
A key physical component we need to finalise to get the game manufactured is the insert for Deepsorrow. I shared a previous iteration (Version 1) of this back in Update #23. This picture here shows how the cards would fit into the box with dividers in Version 1. Note in particular the horizontal storage of the double poker cards in the top left with the divider tabs pointing towards the inside of the box:
The solution shown above worked as we originally intended but it felt inelegant. Legends Untold is very much a passion project for the team and we really want the Deepsorrow box to give you that 'Library of Novice cards' functionality where we can. Therefore in response to a great suggestion by James Patron Bell we went back to the drawing board and challenged ourselves to make something better for you.
Note I am going to use a lot of pictures to try and illustrate the changes.
Here is a plan view - you can see a tray on the left used for counters, the outline of poker cards to the left and right of the box (don't worry you will see them better in the elevation view) and the insert itself. Please note all the drawings have the very front of the insert removed so you can see through the layer.
This is the elevation view - note the poker cards, sleeves and dividers to the left of the box and double poker card and sleeve to the right of the box. I have colour coordinated this just to show where everything fits, basically the pastel orange poker cards go on trenches to the left and right of the centre section and the double pokers go to the top of the centre section separated by the compartment for the trays.
Here is an isometric view:
And a bespoke view to help you see how it would all fit together.
OK, so those are the detailed drawings, the next step was to make this using foamboard to try it out. Please note these are handcrafted and have been to a convention to show people so they can look a little rough. The finished components will be made using plastic, this real like prototype was made so we could try it out and look for final improvements.
Let's start with the empty box:
Now we add in the outmost section of the insert, you can see the front is added in now. After trying this multiple times we have recessed away two sections at the front to make it easier to access the poker cards at the front of each trench:
This is what it looks like from the front (again please forgive the scratches and pen marks). Note you can see this version increases the height of the box significantly, this is so we can accommodate the double pokers and the books properly (we will get to that in a bit):
Now we add the central H section which forms the internal compartments:
Here is a more top down angle from the rear:
Now we add in the first of the token trays into the front central compartment:
And then stack the second token tray on top. Note the tray was designed with one big compartment at the top to accommodate the boss tokens and potentially some half poker cards. I actually think it may be better to have one more divider in the top as it will accommodate the boss tokens and give you 4x other storage compartments (across the 4 trays):
And then stack the third token tray on top (forgive the jaunty angle on the foamboard please!) Artisanal perhaps? (ahem):
And finally the fourth token tray on top again. You can see some dragon dice and the shock cards in here, as stated above I think the shock cards could probably just live in one of the poker trenches at the front and we give you all more storage compartments. Please note the divider wall in the centre of the H is recessed to permit easier access to the double pokers but will still retain all four trays:
Now we add in the double pokers into their own compartment. This way you can find them far more easily than in the version 1 insert. These just use placeholder dividers, I will come back to the dividers at the end folks:
Now we can place the poker cards for the hero content (weapons, kits, outfits, talents etc) in the trench to the left. Theis picture shows this for all of the sets, I have used a spare piece of foamboard as a spacer. I think this could be a good place to store the shock deck:
And now the poker sized non-hero cards (Foes, Discoveries, Events etc) in the trench to the right:
We now place the Battlefield on top of the supporting walls. Note the top corner is coming apart here, the Foamboard is slightly too big for the components here, this will of course be sorted in the final product:
We now place all of the books on top of the Battlefield:, also note the two punchboards are shown here too, again we will make sure this all fits properly folks:
From the front:
With the punchboards removed, you would now have space store additional books:
With the lid on. Note we will be tweaking this to make a 'shoulder box' (some of you may also know these as 'neck boxes' so that there is a closed fit (unlike the gap shown here) which will be better than a really tall lid:
And finally a more top down view of it all together:
Dividers
The Version 2 will require us to adjust the official dividers for you. Here are the original divider to use with the Version 1 insert, note the poker cards were designed to be stored landscape at this point:
And with the card in front of the divider - this is the same concept which we will be replicating with the adjusted dividers for use with the Version 2 insert:
Here you can see why we now need to make the dividers in portrait format:
And so we use an appropriate sized piece of card for the prototype:
Which if you imagine the divider resized to the piece of card would look something like this:
I can't show this easily in situ but, this shot here shows how the recess in the front wall permits access to the cards in the trench and how the divider would look behind it:
OK so if we look at the double pokers from the original version, they were never made to the correct size but the picture shown here shows how they would have looked, upside down in the top left of the box:
The double poker card would now be stored in a landscape format and vertically (with the divider resized accordingly):
I cut the bottom off this divider (always feels weird cutting a cards product from the factory) so you can see how the double pokers work now, which I think is a far better product for you all to use:
Note in between hospital visits I attended Tabletop Scotland with the demo team and showed this prototype off there. It alongside the product suite in general received positive feedback from everyone I spoke to. A number of people both new to LU and familiar with the game commented on how much fun they found the demo and in particular how the new Battlefield helped make combat feel less abstract.
Updated Timeline
My illness and the insert redesign has cost us some time, but we are not in a bad place. Our intention is to try and have all the files off to Whatz by Halloween. We await to hear when our production slot will be (subject to approval of the Version 2 insert) but we think this will cost us maybe two months in terms of a delay against the initial projection. For this I am sorry and apologise to you all. I will clarify when I know more but would still hope you will have your games in Q1 2024 based on this current delay.
Next Update
I have not forgotten about the proofreading! This update is huge enough, I will send out another update within a few days which will share the files we have available for proofing - again thanks for the kind offers to help on that front - massively appreciated!
That's it for now folks, please let us know what you think of the Version 2 insert, we believe it will give you a far better product to use. If we can nail this element, we can focus on the remaining elements and get the files off to the printer.
